Welcome to the first Chit Chat and All That! for 2012
and the last one we have in this series.
As of next Monday, the 9th January, we will be presenting the Best Of Chit Chat and All That! for the next few weeks whilst we organize our new roster of participants and the marvelous subjects they will be discussing.
Today however, we have something a little bit different for you to read in the way it has been presented. Abby Hayes and Raymond Frazee got together to talk about Fetishes.
What makes this Chit Chat and All That! different is that we have the normal chat between our two guest authors plus we have another piece written by Raymond about the subject of their discussion which is quite an interesting and insightful read.
So grab that first morning cuppa or that nice evening drink, sit back and enjoy!
FETISHES: A JOINT POINT OF VIEW BY ABBY HAYES AND RAYMOND FRAZEE
The other morning Raymond and I got up early on a Sunday no less to have an actual Facebook chat on the subject we’d been assigned which was fetishes. It went something like this…
Abby Hayes: I’m here Good morning!
Raymond Frazee: Good Morning Abby! How are you?
Abby Hayes: Good and you? Seems I woke up to my first published story!!!!!
Raymond Frazee: Yes, I saw that. Congratulations! I just sold a story to NNP as well.
Abby Hayes: Thanks! Trying not to hyperventilate and figure out what to do first! LOL And, congrats back! When will it come out? Is it fetish related since that is our topic?
Raymond Frazee: It’s a short story, about 10,000 words. And, yes . . . it’s heavy BDSM fantasy.
Abby Hayes: Oh cool. Our chit chat topic is Fetishes – What we like, what we dislike. What we enjoy writing about. What we would like to try in real life or in our stories.
*a few minutes pass*
Raymond Frazee: Sorry, but my computer decided to restart.
Abby Hayes: No problem. Gave me a chance to refill my coffee. So, want to throw out a first question, or statement or something? *yawns and sips coffee*
Raymond Frazee: Well then, first, let me ask: What are YOUR fantasies?
Abby Hayes: Oh boy! Don’t hold back! *giggles* Alright, let me see, where to begin? I have found in reading that I have a thing for M/F/M, and that I could go either way as to who controls that situation *winks* Since I’m still a bit sleepy, let me throw the ame question back at you, what are your fantasies, Raymond?
Raymond Frazee: Oh, now we’re getting into some crazy stuff. I have a huge sci fi background, and so I often go into the fantastic when it comes to fantasies. I love bondage. I love BDSM. But I also like fantasies that are “fantasies”, things that really can exist outside the realm of what we would see as real. I also tend to relate to women more than me, so when I write it tends to be far more female dominated than having a simple F/M structure. Not to say I don’t enjoy a “normal” fantasy. Trust me, I do.
Abby Hayes: I love the fantastic with the fantasy! Although I’ve never tried to write it, I did have my character in “Finding Paradise” reading a vampire erotic book *winks* Let me ask you out of curiosity, do you draw a line between sci-fi and paranormal as far as your fantasies go? This is a what type of characters in what positions type question LOL
Raymond Frazee: That’s interesting you ask. I grew up reading “hard” sci fi (this was in the 1960’s, 1970’s), and so I have developed that demarcation about what I think is sci fi and what is fantasy. But now, when we talk about fantasies like we’re discussing, I don’t make much of a distinction. I mean, if you bring magic into a modern erotic story, is it fantasy, or is it paranormal? Or does it matter, because, at heart, it’s still erotica.
Abby Hayes: Very true! Let me ask then, what type of character is your favorite to write or fantasize about? And what fetish would you have them participating in? You mentioned BDSM, but along what lines?
Raymond Frazee: I have one idea I’m trying to develop now: it deals with a woman doctor who develops intuitive nanomachines that can restructure material on demand. Unfortunately for her, they get into her body, and she finds herself at their mercy, sort of becoming a “fantasy girl” for sorts for people who feed ideas to machines.
It brings into play elements I like: smart, sexy women; finding yourself in a sort of “I’m not in control” situation; some BDSM (after all, she’s sort of a slave to the desires of others); and a lot of strange things that could happen.
Abby Hayes: Wow! That sounds really hot! I like a smart and sexy girl too, sometimes in control over a couple of tough guys, and one who knows when she wants to submit as well. A slave to desires. I like using this type of woman in writing because it gives me such freedom to let the character just go into places where as the writer I haven’t even thought of yet. In my story, Finding Paradise, I didn’t imagine F/F but my character did when I was writing it! LOL So I went with it, and it turned out a nice dressing room scene.
Raymond Frazee: I do a lot of F/F, but it’s not because I’m a guy who loves seeing lesbians. <S> I find it easier to write women, and I find it very easy to write intelligent, strong women. I just finish a novel for NaNoWriMo where the characters were a woman who finds herself in the body of a powerful sorceress; a succubus; a hermaphrodite who looks female; and the sorceress’ lesbian vampire love. It’s quite the group.
Abby Hayes: I guess! I would love reading a story like that. I just hadn’t thought of including F/F in my story, but once it got started, the first hint of it, once they touched, tasted a little, I found the spanking element to be really steamy, especially when it took place the second time in front of the one ladies husband. I like to mess with power plays, and a sorceress/succubus/vampire mix would really incorporate that power element.
Raymond Frazee: My story isn’t erotica, per say, but it has the elements for it. A succubus wouldn’t care who she’s with, by the way. And think of the things she could bring to a party.
Abby Hayes: Oh yeah! So now that we have discussed what we like a bit, is there a fetish you dislike, one you wouldn’t write and why?
Raymond Frazee: It’s funny, but I’m finding a lot of the “Dom/sub” relationships to be a bit boring. The whole, “get naked and kneel” line is . . . well, wanting. I don’t care for the idea of keeping someone like an animal. For some reason that really rubs me wrong.
Abby Hayes: I can understand that if that’s the way they were actually treated. I think I have held back from heavier BDSM so far just because I don’t think I have the knowledge base to write it well. My stories up till now have just been what has been in my mind to want to try, and experimenting first with my characters. *winks*
Raymond Frazee: What particular thing don’t you like?
Abby Hayes: I’m a person honestly who fears pain, so much so that I even when I was young would shy away from certain situations just for fear of getting hurt. I’m no daredevil. So I think the heavier BDSM, where more intense pain is used for pleasure, I couldn’t write because I in a way couldn’t put myself even in my imagination in that position. I have read heavier pieces and while I loved the stories, especially the intensity of them, I would still find myself inwardly cringing to some degree. It just lets me know I couldn’t pull off writing it, not well anyway. Funny, I can pretty much read or watch anything (YV I mean *winks*) but I think I am quicker to doubt myself in writing it and maybe it is just that I’m new to writing erotica, as I have just been of age to read it for a few years now LOL.
Raymond Frazee: I don’t get into pain, either. The story I just sold, there was double penetration and the use of gags and clover clamps, but the hard pain . . . I think, in terms of BDSM, it’s more challenging to go with mental conditioning–and punishment.
Abby Hayes: In writing erotica, especially fantasies, it is really easy to let your mind go into places your body in real life hasn’t. But then, if you can’t imagine it or even completely understand it, there are places even the imagination won’t take you. Although, I have to admit that I have this curiosity to see where other imaginations take them – always been the horror movie type – and I find the same with erotica that I pick up books I couldn’t write just to see where that writer was able to go. The situations I encounter might make me squirm, but I think I like being forced outside the ‘norm’ wherever that line falls.
Raymond Frazee: One story I read, many years ago, was some fetish fiction I found on the Internet. The story involved a woman who found this fetish outfit–corset, leather opera gloves, and thigh high boots with 5 inch heels–and she found she could “lock” them onto her body and they’d literally become part of her, so she could wear them as long as she liked without issue.
Of course, what ends up happening is that they get locked onto her with no way of being removed, and she has to deal with how to exist in a “normal” world while you’re constantly attired in something that should be in a fetish magazine.
I’ve always wanted to write that part of the story, when you deal with that way of life.
Abby Hayes: Being trapped, always pushed beyond your limits I would assume – yes that would be fun and interesting to write. That is the thing with fetishes, no matter what they are, that they keep pushing us, at least I think. We grow, go to the limits of pleasure and back, learn about ourselves in ways we can’t in the public world.
Raymond Frazee: And that leads me to ask–what sort of fetishes do you have?
Abby Hayes: Ah, real life huh? Wow, might have to leave that to the readers imagination as with “Finding Paradise” I will say I fall somewhere in the middle of what happens in that story. I’m young and not sure yet how much of what I want that I will ask for. How’s that for an evasive answer? So you mentioned the seventies and obviously we are in different age brackets, though I have no idea what age you actually are, so I’m curious to see how you would answer the same question. I think some people think the young, the college aged are wild, and yes we experiment, but then everything is new to us. It is my assumption that with age comes more knowledge and more freedom. Am I right or wrong do you think?
Raymond Frazee: Oh, the age thing . . . I’m going to be 55 in May, and while I might have more knowledge, getting the freedom to do those things is hard. I’ve run into a number of issues finding partners who enjoy the same things, and it can be a serious pain in the butt to live out those fantasies.
I have to admit to having clothing fetishes: shoes and boots for women, the type of outfits they wear, etc. I am attracted to supernatural women–good thing you’re not a vampire. <S>
Abby Hayes: LMAO! No, no vampire! But, I do like to dress up and live out fantasies that way. I do own the leather boots that go over the knees with stile do heels, corrections officer to a boxing girl fantasy costumes. My current boyfriend loves that stuff and it seems to be growing in the back of my closest! LOL I think we are in the age of vampires, and have mentioned to my boyfriend about getting a costume for him. We are on the same page there.
Raymond Frazee: See, you have the sort of “things” I would love. I do love thigh high boots . . . I’d probably want you in them for a week. <S>
And the vampire thing; yes, all over the place. Too all over the place in some ways. I love the idea of dangerous women in that way: sexy but powerful and able to take you apart if you aren’t careful
Abby Hayes: We are back to the power play again – seems we definitely have that in common. *winks*
Fantasies We Know, Love and Want
There’s a problem with real life: it’s always too real. We get up, we work, we eat, we return home, we sleep—
And some of us find time to have sex. But what kind? Something normal, vanilla—safe? Or are we talking about something that might be considered illegal in have the states in America?
Some people have good imaginations; some have better imaginations; some have great imaginations. When it comes to sex, when it comes to the sensual and erotic, what do we like? What makes us happy? What drives us to moments of extreme desire?
Who knows? That the way fantasies are: they are meant to be what touches us in way unknown to others. There are a few rules that I feel can be attributed to fantasies, however:
1. No Two People Seem to Have the Same Fantasies.
I’ve spoken with a few writers of erotica—as well as a few others with varying backgrounds—and it become evident that trying to find people who are into the same things fantasy-wise is, at best, a difficult proposition.
For example, when speaking with Abby it turned out she loves the idea of M/F/M situations, and whoever is in control is left pretty much up in the air. For a lot of people a three-some is a hot proposition; a lot of women enjoy the idea of having two men at the same time, and a lot of guys love the idea of having two women—and, in both cases, if they’re bi-sexual, so much the better.
It’s a great fantasy: it’s one I would have a hard time with, however.
Now, don’t get me wrong; I don’t have a problem with Abby’s fantasy. For me it’s a personal issue, because the moment I’d start thinking about it, I’d have to think about how I’d measure up with said women (yes, it would be two women), and then performance would come into play . . . it’s a mess because I’m a mess and I’d make a mess of such a thing.
That said . . . it once almost happened to me. Once, when I was getting my hair permed—it was 1976 and in those days I sported a Jeff Lynne-sized afro—the person doing my hair, a cute 25 year old woman (she told me her age at one point) started hitting on me. Not only that, but her mentor—a woman who was probably in her early 30’s—started hitting on me as well. This was a pretty good thing for my ego, because at that time I wasn’t dating, I wasn’t seeing anyone, and to have two women flirting with me . . . it was good for the soul.
Without making this sound like a porn movie, before it was all over I was propositioned: they both wanted to know if I would be interested in meeting them later. While I was totally cool with the “meeting” part, the location presented problem, as they wanted to meet up at a dance club—or, as was then, the local disco. I thanked them before dropping the bomb: I couldn’t meet with them because I was only 19 and I wouldn’t be able to get into the club.
Needless to say their fantasy of meeting up at the disco crashed and burned right then and there, and both women got those embarrassed looks that said they thought I was an older guy. Apparently whatever fantasies they had of spending a great night with a guy didn’t extend said guy being a teenager. Such is my life.
2. Even When You Share The Same Fantasies With Others, the Intensity of Said Fantasies Almost Never Equal.
There was a time when I wrote a lot of fetish fiction for certain Internet sites. Most of said fiction dealt a little with fetish wear—boots, corsets, and lots of latex—and objectification that revolved for the most part around Agalmatophilia, aka sexual attraction to dolls, mannequins, statues, and the like.
Why did I write this stuff? Because it was something I could write about. And there was an audience. Since I was interested in writing, I did. And, for the most part, it was enjoyable.
However, I did learn a lot about how different people get into their fantasies—
There were a few of my “fans” I started speaking with, and in time I became friendly with them. Conversing with them and talking about what people liked, what they didn’t, it was an interesting time.
However, there were a couple of people . . . after a while, it became obvious that their fantasies, they fetishes, they were sometimes so overwhelming that was a bit annoying. One guy I knew was so into women as dolls that I got the impression that he couldn’t actually relate to a real woman—in fact, I met two women he knew online, and both only seemed like they could relate to him because they so wanted to be the doll he desired.
And there was one woman I knew, she would berate me if, when I wrote, there wasn’t enough latex in the story—because that was what got her off the most. The story could touch every button she had, but if there wasn’t enough latex being worn, she’d fire off a nasty note and tell me how unhappy she was that I wasn’t keeping her happy.
If you can find a person who shares in your vision, in your imagination, in your fantasies, then you are a lucky individual. But even after you find that person—be it a writer, a friend, a lover—don’t be surprised if they decide to kick things up to 11 and bring it on a little stronger.
3. No Matter How Out There You Thing Your Fantasies Are, Someone Will Surprise You.
When Abby and I were speaking I brought up the fact that I have a lot of fantasies that have a lot of, well, fantastic elements to them. Part of that is due to having grown up reading a lot of science fiction; part of that is due to just some things I would love to see and do. And part of it is due to have a very active imagination.
I have a friend, however, a woman I’ve known for a few years. One day we were talking about “things”, and all of a sudden she started telling me about things that she enjoyed, things that she did when she was younger . . . and then she surprised me with a statement I thought I’d never hear from her:
“I’ve been with women, and while I like them, I also love guys. What I need is a guy who can be a woman for me. That would be perfect.”
That was her fantasy, and as we talked more it turned out was she wasn’t looking for was a guy who just like dressing up and such—oh, no. She wanted a guy who could be her girl, who was comfortable enough to let his feminine side out. She was pretty forthright about how finding a guy who could do that for her would be the one thing that would make her life complete.
It was like a woman I knew some 20 years ago when I was still working in Chicago. She once showed up to work wearing tight high boots under a long skirt, and she just had to show me because she knew I loved that sort of stuff. (Oh, yeah, we talked about it.) She showed them to me while we were out to lunch, and it was during that lunch that she admitted that every time she wore boots while having sex she’d have incredible orgasms. She didn’t know why: she didn’t have a fetish about it—or at least she didn’t know if she did—but she said that all her best orgasms came when she wore boots. Her only problem: her boyfriend was getting tied of her wearing them. “I got only boyfriend in all of Chicago who doesn’t like to do his girl while she’s wearing those,” she complained. “What the fuck is wrong with this guy?”
The problem is this: we all have our fantasies. We all like something particular, and that’s not always going to mesh up with what another person likes, or even fantasizes from time to time, about.
The cruel fact is we often fantasize alone. We have something we enjoy and then we pair up with someone and, while everything is great and you have a truly good relationship, there’s always that little something that’s missing . . . and don’t you know it, your partner just ain’t into that. It happens all the time—oh, boy, do I know that from personal experience—and then we look for it out in the Internet, in the published world, in video . . . just something to give us that warm feeling that, yes, someone understands me.
But there is another facet to this, and it’s good for us who write. And it’s this: it don’t matter what we write about in terms of fantasies, ‘cause there are billions of people out there, and eventually someone is going to find your work, and they are going to feel touched.
And don’t we all have a fantasy about being touched?
Don’t answer that.